What does it take to rise above and silence doubt when the world sets a low bar of expectation for you? Host Kate Byrne welcomes the ultimate ladder-builder, Michelle Gervais, a Partner at Blank Rome LLP, Adjunct Professor, Co-chair of the Sports Industry Group, and President of WISE Tampa Bay. Michelle shares her powerful story of being underestimated from a young age and how she navigates the high-stakes world of matrimonial and commercial litigation with “steel and grace,” proving her worth not with revenge, but with result. They dig into how to stay grounded under pressure, the value of authenticity over “pretzeling” yourself for others, and why having a “big, bad table of everybody” is crucial for growth and building conviction in rooms that “weren’t built for you.”
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From Underestimated To Unstoppable: Attorney Michelle Gervais On Redefining Success In Work And Life And Rising Above Doubt
Surprising Those Who Doubt You
How To Silence Doubt And Rewrite Your Ending
I wanted to take a little bit of a look at doubt. There’s so much of it these days and its relationship with humility, curiosity, and so much more. What happens, and I’m sure many of us have had this happen, when people doubt your ability? They say from the get-go, “You’re never going to be too much of anything.” That’s how some people climb ladders and how others build them.
My guest, Michelle Gervais, is one of those ladder-builders, having been told from an early age, quite vulnerably, that she was not going to amount to much because of, frankly, what her father did, which is stupid. She has been busy proving everybody wrong. She’s a Partner at Blank Rome LLP. She’s an adjunct professor. She’s active in sports and entertainment and a leader of Tampa Bay events. She’s had to not only navigate the high-stakes world of matrimonial and commercial litigation, but she’s also done all of those other activities, plus being a mom and a wife, with steel and grace. As a result, she has often surprised those who didn’t see her coming.
In our conversation, we talked about what it takes to rise higher than others expect and what happens when you do so on your own terms. What a gift that is. Michelle and I dig in on how to stay grounded under pressure, how to lead the conviction in those rooms where they technically supposedly weren’t built for you, and why real strength has nothing to do with being the loudest voice in the room.
If you’ve ever been doubted, dismissed, or told you couldn’t ever do that or be that, this one’s for you. As Michelle reminds us, the best way to silence doubt is not revenge. It’s the result. Our conversation is for all who’ve ever been told, “You can’t,” and you’ve decided to rewrite the ending. Stay until the end. There’s KB Takeaways. I look forward to continuing the conversation.
Welcome, readers. We have such an accomplished person who’s going to share a lot of insights through lived experience, success, and triumph of others, frankly, underestimating her. They were wrong. Join me in welcoming Michelle Gervais, who is a Partner in Blank Rome’s Matrimonial and Commercial Litigation Practice Groups, Co-chair of the Sports Industry Group, President for Women in Sports and Events in Tampa Bay, and an adjunct professor. Welcome, overachiever.
Thank you so much for having me.
The Low Bar: Using Underestimation As Fuel To Fire
It’s my pleasure. When we first spoke, one thing that I took away was this whole notion of in the early days, and this happened to so many of us, but you had it, where there was such a low bar of expectation with you. I’m going to take us back to that time. If you’re comfortable sharing, when was the first time that someone underestimated you to that degree? How did you use that moment as a little fuel to fire rather than saying, “You’re right. I’m worthless. Why bother?”
I recall it being third grade. I shared this with you. I haven’t shared this story with many, but I’m happy to share it because I think it’s important. I grew up in a very small town in the middle of nowhere in Michigan, in the Upper Peninsula, which is like South Canada. Most of the folks there are French-Canadian, Finnish, or Italian. That’s the heritage.
I was in a very small school. I graduated with 54 kids in my senior class. At the time, the guidance counselor turned out to also be the principal of the elementary school. He then turned into being the guidance counselor for my high school later on and my varsity basketball coach. I remember in third grade him taking me aside and telling me, “Given what your dad does for a living, you’re never going to amount to anything anyway.”
I remember thinking to myself, “Who the F is this guy? Why is he saying that? That’s horrible. My dad is amazing. What are you talking about? He has worked in a grocery store his entire life because he is loyal. He is the manager of the produce section. He teaches me all the time about how to pick fruit when I’m at this store.
Everybody goes to him for advice.
It was the only thing in town. I was thinking to myself, “This is crazy. Apparently, you don’t know where I come from.” I remember being in third grade and a straight-A student. I was always a straight-A student. I kept that in the back of my head. I knew from early on, and this is one of the reasons why I was going to be a lawyer, that I am going to champion other people in the best way that I can. I’m going to be an advocate for other people and make sure they always know that they are something and that they can be anything they want to be.
I knew early on that I wanted to be a lawyer so I could champion others, advocate for them, and remind them that they matter and can become anything they want to be. Share on XIt’s interesting because he became my basketball coach later on when I was in high school. My little sister, who is two years younger, so it was my senior year, and she was a sophomore, got brought up to varsity because she was very good. I always teased her that I was still better, but she was way better than me. He was yelling at her during practice, and it wasn’t her fault.
I remember going to him, and I said, “Coach, that was completely inappropriate. I’m sorry, but I’m not going to sit here and stand for that. What you said is wrong.” He was like, “If you don’t like it, quit.” I go, “That’s perfect,” and I do. I walked off and quit. He came running after me because then the rest of the team wanted to quit, too. He begged me to come back, but I remember thinking to myself, “Yes.” I got the scores that I did on my ACT. He was then my guidance counselor because that’s how that rolled. He was like, “You can go anywhere. Let me know.” I was like, “Thanks.”
Choosing Your Battleground: Matrimonial & Commercial Litigation
I want to touch upon the law for a sec. You intervened for your sister, like, “I’m not going to tolerate bullies regardless. I’ll speak the truth.” How did you choose the specific areas of expertise in law? You’ve got your commercial. You’ve also got matrimonial. What drew you to those battlegrounds? Maybe the potential for bullying, right?
Yeah. It’s interesting. I’ve never given it a lot of thought, but I fell into the roles. You go to law school and do all the areas that you have to in your courses. You work at different places during the summer to get a feel, but you never quite understand all of the areas of law. You’re like, “Where do I want to work? What do I want to do?” You then get into a firm.
I was fortunate. It happened to me. I was in a competition in law school during my third year, my last year. My teammate and I had done very well, and we were being honored at a Florida bar luncheon. It happened to be the 50-year anniversary of people who had their 50-year anniversary in the law practice. At the same time, that was the actual luncheon where they were doing our awards.
All of the spaces were full. We didn’t know anybody. There was a chair next to me that was open. The luncheon starts, and in walks this older man. He’s looking for a spot to sit and was walking around. I told him to sit next to me. I had no idea who he was. It turns out he was one of the preeminent Florida family lawyers, if not in the state, maybe the country.
He started talking to me again. I had no idea who he was. He asked, “What was your topic on your paper and your moot court brief?” It happened to be a family law issue. He was a family law specialist. I didn’t know that. We hit it off, and he offered me a job. I remember when he got up and left, my coach looked at me, and he went, “Do you have any idea who that was?” I’m like, “I have no clue,” and then I go, “He offered me a job. Should I take it?” He was like, “Yeah.”
I love stories like that where it’s a, for lack of a better term, divine intervention or whatever. Pick your phrase of choice that speaks to that magic moment where the stars align. You being you makes it all happen. Some people are so afraid of the law. I’m being completely vulnerable. I had to go to traffic court. Here, in Virginia, I wasn’t in this mode, but I watched five people be put into jail for 1 to 2 nights.
For what reason?
Leading With Conviction: Asserting Authority In Male-Dominated Rooms
They were going 100 miles an hour. It can be an unforgiving place for anyone who doesn’t fit in the mold and has clear love for authority. There are more and more folks who are getting more comfortable speaking their truth. There are a lot of people who question. Younger generations have a different relationship to power and those who are in power. There are certain milestones that need to be achieved. In the early days, how did you learn to assert authority in the rooms that were not initially or supposedly designed for you? Clearly, you’ve proven that wrong.
I’m not sure. The best that I can say is that my grandparents on my father’s side lived two doors down from us. They were also very supportive and protective. My grandpa, who, in his generation, did not grow up in a situation where he thought a lot of women should be in power, empowered me from a very early age. He brought me to meetings with his lawyers to do his estate planning. He brought me in on it and wanted my thoughts.
That’s beautiful. That’s lovely.
He was like, “Women, but you can do anything.” I always thought it was interesting and a very cool way of looking at it from his generation because that was tough back then. I also had two jobs throughout high school. I started work at thirteen. I lied to my boss. In the state of Michigan, it should be fourteen. I lied and said I was fourteen. They all knew I wasn’t fourteen, but they knew I wanted to be independent and make my own money. I started waitressing at thirteen and worked there forever.
I worked hard and did well in school. I was around all the adults, playing cards with my family, my grandparents, and all their brothers and sisters. They had eleven siblings on both sides. We would have these big card games for the holidays. They’d let us give little massages at the table and buy into the game when we were kids. I learned how to play blackjack at age nine. These are all the things I probably shouldn’t be saying.
That’s all real. I wish more people would share things like that. I think it’s a great thing.
They always made me feel safe in a way to maybe not be disrespectful, but to assert myself in a way by giving an opinion.
I was the person who had her mouth washed out with soap. My parents were that generation.
It could also be hot sauce.
Beyond Failure: How Doubt Leads To Strength And Resilience
It was like, “Do you want to hear what I think? Here’s where we go.” Do you think doubt, whether it’s others or your own, can be useful?
Yeah. You hear a lot of people who talk about failures. You learn more from failures. You also learn more from doubt and how we overcome it. We always have doubts. I still have doubts, but at least I work very hard not to feel that way. I get the imposter syndrome to say in these rooms, “I belong.” No offense to the male gender, because a lot of great men got me to where I’m at. I will never sit back and say negative things about that, but at the end of the day, what man has ever said he didn’t belong, or he had doubt, or he didn’t think he should apply for a job that he only had maybe 10% of the qualifications? They don’t.
You learn more from failures. You also learn more from doubt and how we overcome it. Share on XIt’s interesting. My daughter is sixteen and a half. I know you have kids. In fourth grade, her teacher at the time was a little bit of the first tough teacher we had in years, but she was fantastic. She was teaching Sophie a lot. I’ll never forget. They had to apply for jobs. They go and do this junior business, where they have their own little city. She told all of them, “Here are all the positions you can apply for.”
Sophie came home in fourth grade and was like, “Mom, I need you to help me put a resume together.” I said, “What are you applying for?” She’s like, “I’m applying to be a camp counselor. I’m applying for marketing.” I’m like, “Okay.” We did her resume and were working on it. The next day, I asked her, “How did it go?” She goes, “Ms. Thompson took me up to the front and said, ‘Sophie, how come you didn’t apply to be the CEO of the bank?’”
She goes, “Ms. Thompson, I’ve never held a job before. How could I ever be the CEO? Every boy in this class has never held a job before.” Guess what they applied for? The CEO. I was like, “Wow.” When she came home and told me that, I thought to myself, “What an amazing lesson for me.” I didn’t challenge her on those positions because I thought of letting her apply for whatever she wants to apply for. I never gave it a second thought.
When you’re underestimated, do you still feel that urge to prove people wrong? Has there been a shift in your relationship with that?
It’s no longer an urge, but more of a satisfaction. I’ll never forget. I was going to Jacksonville for multiple hearings back in the day of the foreclosures in the state of Florida. I was North of Miami, so the firm kept sending me. I was in front of the same judge over and over again for at least five weeks in a row. It would be these big cattle calls, where everyone shows up. Most of the folks who were going through the foreclosures were sad. They were so downtrodden. They hadn’t showered in forever. You could tell in the courtroom who those folks were.
Here I am, in a suit, practicing how many times in front of the same judge. When I sat down, all the male lawyers sat on the other side because I was the only female lawyer in the place. All the people who were about to lose their homes were sitting next to me or in my area. That’s fine. No big deal. The judge, who was in his late 70s, came over to me before he started and got on the bench. He said, “Ma’am, are you about to lose your home?”
I sat there, and I was like, “Judge, I’m in a suit. I’ve been in front of you for how many weeks in a row. No, I’m not, but thank you for asking.” He then was like, “I get confused with the court reporter. You must be the court reporter.” I was like, “No, I’m not.” I’ve only been practicing for 26 years. It gets a little bit less the older I get, but it’s a lot. I secretly enjoyed it.
Steel And Grace: Staying Grounded Under High-Stakes Pressure
I’m sure. It’s like, “Watch that.” When you went on to win those people’s homes back, thank you very much, one would hope that he would learn from that and never make that same mistake twice. A girl can dream. Going forth in dealing with both the challenges that your clients have, the way the court challenges you and others, and life in general, demands a certain stamina. How do you stay grounded and strategic under pressure when the stakes or the emotions are so high?
That’s a lot of the time. A lot of times, we have these that we call the company types of cases.
I bet.
For the most part, it’s money, but it’s still somebody’s everything. It might be a family law case, and it’s their kids. It might be a custody fight. For me, I’ve never thought of myself as, “I’m a lawyer.” I’ve always thought the law is something that I do. I tell my daughter and my husband all the time, “If I die someday, the top ten things cannot include, ‘She was a great lawyer.’” I hope that’s the eleventh thing, but it’s what I do, not who I am. I’ve never taken on that persona.
I like to think that I’ve kept very humble where I’m at. I have a lot of empathy for folks. I try to see myself in their shoes and what they’re going through. That’s how I’ve been able to maybe be as successful as I have been, or at least have the clients that I’ve been able to work with. There are times when it’s exhausting. There are times when you want to crawl up in a little ball and not go to work. That happens, too. Sometimes, you take time for yourself.
When those moments happen, do you have, for instance, a routine, a ritual, or a steady practice that you do? Do you say, “I’ve got to take five minutes, go outside, and feel the air.”
In 2024, we were in the middle of doing what I do. I also have a sick husband. Talk about talking to doctors and learning to ask a second question, but not necessarily a question, if that makes sense.
It does.
I was trying to advocate for him. We lost our house in Milton. It was 85% gutted from mold to the studs. We were living in hotels. We were with a dog and a daughter. We had to find an apartment. I remember saying to myself, “This might be a little much.” I went for a massage and got some fresh air. It helped. I take a walk sometimes. Any type of change in the moment helps me, where I can walk away. There are times we have to sit in silence. There are times I meditate. I wouldn’t say I’m great at meditating, but I’m learning to be better. Aren’t we all?
Yeah.
The breathwork is important. I am reminding myself, “There is so much to be thankful for. As much as it’s hard to go through those moments, and it’s okay to feel that hardship and that hard time, there’s going to be a better day. There’s always someone who’s got it worse. I’m thankful that I am in a hotel as opposed to on the street. I’m thankful that I’m able to do something about it. Many people couldn’t.”
There is so much to be thankful for. As hard as it is to go through those moments, and it's okay to feel that hardship, there's going to be a better day. Share on XThat’s true. This too shall pass. It’s redirection. There’s a famous saying from Mother Teresa.
“I know that God only gives us that which we can handle. I wish He didn’t have so much confidence in me.”
It’s like, “You must have thought I was a badass.” Mother Theresa would never say badass, but that’s one.
That’s true. Believe me, readers. I know this is going to sound so Pollyanna. I have found, to your point, that it helps me interrupt the cycle if I stop and go, “How can I look at this differently? What am I learning from all of this?” That has helped to give it enough of a pause and enough of looking at it from a different vantage point. If I sit there, stare at it, and go, “This is stupid,” then maybe that’s what I needed. What am I going to do? Not get myself in that same kind of position again.
We don’t want somebody else’s stress.
“Is this mine?”
Sometimes, it’s hard. I don’t know about you, but I’m going to bet that you’re the person everyone calls when something’s wrong. I’m that person, too, whether it’s work-related from their position or it’s in my personal life. Sometimes, you can’t answer the phone.
That’s true. Learning that little word called no is amazing.
It could also be, “Maybe not right now.”
Paying It Forward: Mentoring And Finding A Sponsor
That’s a good one. As a mentor and a partner, how do you help others who are still finding their confidence or their voice in such male-dominated industries? This is paying it forward, passing batons, and that kind of thing.
I’m the President of Women in Sports and Events Tampa Bay, otherwise known as WISE Tampa Bay. We do a lot of mentoring there with the younger generation in our fields. I’m also an adjunct professor. I teach sports entertainment law in the graduate program at USF. I’m constantly mentoring and talking, but reminding them of how amazing they are.
You're going to have a lot of people around you that may not always treat you greatly, but you don't have to drop to their level and do that back. Share on XFor me, when I look back, the things that were going great in my life, why were they going great at an early age? It’s because people believed in me. Why were things going badly? It’s because people were underestimating or people weren’t believing in me. How did I change their thoughts? Prove myself is not the right phraseology I want to use because sometimes, you can’t help what people think, but maybe help to change their minds or change their thoughts.
I remember having a boss in the early years of being a lawyer who was female. She was very difficult on me, and that’s okay. It would never happen in this day and age because we can’t get away with it. At the end of the day, years later, when I was going up for partner, she was the one who put me up. She came to me and said, “No matter what I threw at you, you were always the nicest human being at the end of the day and always kept your grace.”
I said, “It wasn’t true. You hurt me. You killed me. I may have had a crying session at home, but at the end of the day, I had to keep being me. I don’t need to change for anybody else.” I keep trying to tell my daughter, “You’re going to have a lot of people around you that may not always treat you greatly, but you don’t have to drop to their level and do that back.”
The Ultimate Advice: Always Know Your Worth & Believe In Yourself
What advice would you give to someone who’s quietly underestimated at work, or who wants to rise but isn’t sure how to start or how to go about it?’ That can be so tricky because God forbid, we come across as ambitious. People are like, “Keep an eye out on her. Guard yourself.”
First of all, right, there’s room for all of us at the table. The table is not small. It doesn’t need to be small. I don’t want my table to be small. If my table is small, that means I’m small-minded. I need the big, bad table of everybody because people have so many different opinions, differences, thoughts, and cultural backgrounds. There’s so much that we take in from everybody else, so I don’t want that small table.
I try to remind them of that and to surround themselves, if they can, with someone whom I’ve learned to call a sponsor as opposed to a mentor. Who’s the person that’s going to back you up when you’re not in the room? That’s the person you want. That’s who you want to align yourself with. There might not be anybody, so it’s like, “Is this the place that I want to work at? Is this a place that I need to be at? If it’s not, where do I need to go? What type of place do I need to look for?”
Have the discipline and the oomph to do it.
It’s not easy.
One of the things I was thinking about when we were talking a little earlier about doubt is the connection or the relationship of doubt with humility and curiosity. At first, I thought, “It’s interesting. Is there a relationship between doubt and humility and/or curiosity?” Then, I thought, “No.” It’s realizing you can learn something from every single person, and that goes both down and up, up and down, and behind and forward.
We learn how not to be as much as we learn how to be.
We learn how not to be as much as we learn how to be. Share on XUsually, and more importantly, I find it not good to take anybody who comes to you for granted because of what they can learn from you and what you can learn from them.
It’s very serendipitous that wherever you find yourself in life, the people that are put in your path are put in your path for a reason. You may not know what that reason is, and we may not understand it, but they’re there. They’re there to teach us something. It might be something small, or it might be something huge.
In closing, knowing what you know now, what advice would you give your younger self?
“Continue to believe in yourself. Always know your worth. Remind yourself every day that you deserve to belong at the table, on the couch, in the kitchen, or wherever you want to be. Don’t change yourself at all, except for the better.”
At all ages, there’s such a tendency. I call it pretzeling, where I pretzel myself into the shape that fits the role at hand. It is getting comfortable and realizing, to your point, “I don’t need to change. It is who I am. I’ll get what I get out of this situation.” I may find out, “Guess what? I’m not your cup of tea. You’re not my cup of tea. That’s okay. That’s great. Thank you, and thank God. Now we don’t waste time and energy in places that are wrong paths for us at this moment.”
I couldn’t agree more. There’s something very authentic about that, too. You don’t have to keep pretending. I don’t need everyone to like me. I say this all the time. When someone’s like, “You need to meet so-and-so,” I’m like, “I don’t want any more friends.” It’s not that I don’t like them, but I am this crazy loyal person who wants to be a great friend to the people I call my friends. I won’t have time for the ones that matter to me.
As we’re talking about this, I also recognize that, frankly, through that, that’s a form of energy management. That’s a form of self-care in a lot of ways.
You’re right.
Continue to believe in yourself. Always know your worth. Remind yourself every day that you deserve to belong wherever you want to be. Don't change yourself, except for the better. Share on XIt’s not cluttering. We all have the drawer in the kitchen.
Even after the hurricane, while unpacking, I have the drawer in the kitchen.
I know. It’s like, “It’s never going to happen again.” You don’t want that drawer to become your life in your drawer of friendships, either.
It proves you mean something. If you are considered a friend of mine, I’d like that to mean something to me and to you. It’s not to say that I don’t want other people as my friends. I want to make sure that I’m taking care of the ones that I have.
Thank you so much. It’s no small wonder that you have risen to all that you have and are continuing to. It’s so wonderful. Your generosity and spirit in bringing others around you right along for the ride are fantastic. Thank you for all your pearls and all that you’re doing.
Thank you so much for all you’re doing and for having me. I appreciate you and your time. Thanks again.
My pleasure. Until next time.
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KB Takeaways: Embrace Evolution and the Big Table
What’d you think? I don’t know why, but I’ve been thinking quite a bit about doubt, self-doubt, and its correlation with humility and curiosity. I think it’s because I’m seeing in these tumultuous times so many people debating, whether they are doing the right thing, whether they are in the right job, or whether they are believing the right things, and casting down opinions about who they are and who they can and cannot be. When I had the opportunity to speak with Michelle, I thought about someone who grew up in a very small town to living the life that she is now, and, frankly, helping others who are falling into those same troughs of disbelief was an important point to bring up and remind everybody.
My KB Takeaways for this is this whole notion of, “Can you learn from doubt?” Absolutely. What you’ve learned is how strong and resilient you are. It does require a bit of patience and effort. Both are very much worthwhile to be put into that situation. Keep being yourself versus changing and, as I call it, pretzeling, so that you fit into what other people need you to be.
This is something that will happen again and again, because as we evolve, which we all do, you’re going to outgrow certain situations, certain friends, and certain jobs. It can be poignant, frankly. We probably all have had either friends or worlds that we don’t fit in anymore. It’s not an intentionally negative or hurtful thing. It’s in order for you to continue on and be all that you can be. Hence, to have an impact and influence on all the ecosystems that are in your future, you need to embrace that and carry on.
I love the notion of not wanting a small table because that means I’m small-minded. Every person who crosses your path is there for a reason. That is yet another KB Takeaway right there. They’re there for a reason to either teach, demonstrate, give you pause, or make sure that you are sure about something or are thinking clearly about something. Finally, there’s the thought and the reality that you deserve to belong. Frankly, everybody does, as long as they’re coming from a place of an open heart and kindness, and they are not being bullies and awful to others. With that, I wish you all a terrific week. I look forward to the next conversation on the show.
Important Links
- Blank Rome LLP
- She is Football Women’s Summit | Blank Rome LLP
- WISE Tampa Bay
- University of South Florida
About Attorney Michelle Gervais
Michelle serves as the Blank Rome’s Sports Industry Group Co-Chair, Chair of Florida Offices and advises high-profile athletes, celebrities, entertainers, and executives, as well as businesses in the sports, entertainment, and finance industries in complex disputes that involve the intersection of business and family law matters.
Known as a “fixer” across several legal disciplines, Michelle handles highly delicate matters protecting her clients from serious financial and reputational harm. With deep experience, as well as world class client service, Michelle is the lawyer to call when you need a holistic solution to a complex and delicate legal problem.