What if the key to better leadership and teamwork was sitting in a box of LEGO bricks? Jolynn Ledgerwood, principal of Elevate Your Talent and a certified LEGO® Serious Play® facilitator, joins Kate Byrne to reveal how this playful yet powerful methodology transforms boardrooms into spaces of creativity, communication, and problem-solving. From unlocking subconscious insights to creating psychologically safe spaces where all voices are heard, Jolynn shares stories of breakthroughs—from school districts to leadership teams—that prove “hard play” can drive serious impact. Discover how LEGO® Serious Play® challenges old ways of thinking and empowers leaders to build ideas brick by brick.
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Building Ideas Brick By Brick: Jolynn Ledgerwood On LEGO® Serious Play® For Teams And Leaders
Play With Purpose On Purpose!
In this episode, we’re going to figuratively play together with none other than so many people’s favorite plastic brick of all time, LEGOs. LEGO is probably one of the most forward-thinking companies, and my dream is to get the CEO on an episode so we won’t go down that road. Many people think of it as something that we’ve played with when we were little, with our grandkids, with our kids, and we stick them all in the little box in the back. They’re so annoying, all those different little pieces, and they belong in the playroom.
My guest is Jolynn Ledgerwood. She’s the Principal of Elevate Your Talent. She would argue, au contraire, they belong in the boardroom. She’s a Certified LEGO® Serious Play® Facilitator. She’s helping teams swap out boring, old, yawn, encouraging PowerPoints for plastic bricks, and in the process, unlocking extraordinary creativity, communication, and problem-solving skills that a lot of people didn’t even know they had, and uncovering leaders that the C-suite didn’t realize they had.
We’re going to be talking about why building with our hands can build better leaders and better teams, and better cultures, how LEGO can turn tense meetings into breakthrough moments, where extraordinary innovations’ leaps and bounds are leapt and bounded, and why play might be the most underrated professional skill you’ll ever develop. Be sure to stay to the end, because we’ve got a few KB Takeaways for you. With that, come on, let the games begin.
From Playroom To Boardroom: Jolynn Ledgerwood’s LEGO Journey
We’re so fortunate to have the Principal of Elevate Your Talent, Jolynn Ledgerwood. We are going to play, play, play. That’s going to make a lot more sense once we get started. Jolynn, welcome.
Thank you so much, Kate. It’s such a pleasure to be here.
I’ve wanted to have this conversation for a while, from the very first time I got to experience the magic of using LEGOs as a part of leadership building, self-assessment, and so many things. That is exactly what Jolynn does. She’s an expert at it.
Yes, it is. I love it.
How did you get started in working with LEGO bricks as a part of your whole methodology?
I’ve been in learning and development coaching for 25 years. That has been my career in different companies. A few years ago, a friend of mine, who I hadn’t seen in forever, from Germany, and I met for lunch. He brought me what’s called the Build A Brick activity. It’s using six bricks. I was like, “What is this?” He was like, “Build a brick. Build a deck,” so I did. He built a deck, and we compared our decks. Both decks are right because my deck is my deck, and his deck is his deck. I said, “This is amazing. What is this?” He said, “It’s LEGO® Serious Play®.” It’s phenomenal.
I started looking into it, and there are over 15,000 practitioners overseas in European countries, Asia, Australia, and Vietnam, all over, and there are only 100 of us in the United States. I thought, “This is crazy. This is amazing.” I’ve done training and development for so many years, and there are different tools, different pieces, assessments, and all these different things you can do, but bringing LEGO bricks into the workspace, I’ve come to this realization that Americans see work as this little box. If it doesn’t fit in this little box, then it can’t be productive, it can’t be good, and we can’t make money.
In reality, when you allow people to use their hands while they’re thinking, it opens up 80% more of their brain power. It allows the subconscious to come through your builds. It allows thoughts that maybe you’re afraid to express word-for-word. You can put those in your builds, and then it’s a conversation. It’s remarkable the way that when we have complex problems, going back to the conference room and the drawing board doesn’t always work. A lot of people’s brains don’t think that way.
Imagine those same people walking into that conference room with LEGO brick packages sitting in front of their chairs, and they’re like, “What is happening here?” We’re going to have a similar strategic session, but it’s going to be building models and building metaphors of what we’re thinking and where we can grow, and enter corporate problems here.
The usage is so wide, and so many of us have either played with bricks when we were younger, or played with LEGOs with our kids, or have always wanted to be a creative and build adult LEGO sets, which you can see behind me. It allows them to see something that they’re somewhat comfortable with. It’s a methodology that may be new, but seeing how it might get us to that next step is pretty encouraging.
LEGO’s Innovative Edge: Sustainability, Creativity, And The Power Of Play
I love the LEGO company. I do a lot of speaking about their ability to be an intentional company and being extraordinary, especially their CEO. What they have done to reinvent and reinvigorate themselves is a subject for another episode. Suffice it to say, they have done such great work with, dare I say, the illegal diversity, inclusion, and equity. Right now, I also know they are taking a look at how we can make it more sustainable and how we can look at some plant-based alternatives for creating the bricks. They’re so on it and ahead of it in so many ways.
I look at it when writing. People are handed a blank page of paper. Some people like myself can go on and on. Not everyone can do that. Certainly not in a room of your peers where you’re essentially saying, “With the strategy session, be smart. Be funny, be creative.” It makes so much sense when you think about it that if you reincorporate and reintroduce play, fun, and invention, it can only create a competitive edge for a company.
The opposite of play is not work. The opposite of play is boredom. I’ll lay it out there. Some people walk in and they’re like, “This is so dumb. I’m not going to build. I’m not creative. I’m not going to do this.” When we start, it’s not an immediate build your ideal CEO. We don’t start with that. We jump in with smaller exercises that ease you into building and getting comfortable with the bricks, etc. We build with the DUPLO bricks and the LEGO bricks because they fit together. Many people don’t know that the original LEGO bricks that were built still fit with the current bricks that they make now.
LEGO is a phenomenal organization. You mentioned it a little bit, but they went through a lot of trouble over the years, and keep reinventing themselves. What they’ve created now is unbelievable. I buy my sets from LEGO. However, the proceeds go to the LEGO Foundation, which is their incredible charity. It’s taking people out of the box that we forced them into.
I used to train sales reps for a cybersecurity company. We had the two-day sales kickoff at the hotel conference rooms, where there were ten tables of all the sales associates and BDRs, business development reps. Everybody is sitting down, and we expect these people who are high energy, high motivation, high activity, because they’re sales guys. That’s what they do all day, every day. We force them to sit in a conference room where it’s dark, so you can see the projection.
You have somebody standing there spieling about all these new products, and they’re jumping out of their skin. That night, I stopped at Target and bought some Play-Doh. This was before I knew about LEGOs. I bought the little party ones and put one at every seat at the table. When they first started coming, they’re like, “Is this for an exercise? What is this for?” I was like, “It’s on your table. Enjoy.”
Seeing the difference in day 1 versus day 2, when they were active, they were listening to the presentation because they were able to fidget and use their hands. Some of the creations they made in Play-Doh were unbelievably detailed. Somebody built a motorcycle. Using your hands and recognizing that not everybody learns the same, not everybody processes information similarly, and with LEGO® Serious Play®, everybody is on the same table. We are all building together.
My admin assistant is part of the team. She is going to be in there, building. My loud-mouth sales associate, maybe he is going to be in there, building. My CEO, if he wants to be a part of it, he’s building too. Everybody has a say, everybody gets to build, and everybody shares their builds. If they’re not willing to build, like the CEO or leadership, then they’re asked to leave the room because we’re all in this together. We’re all building together. They see that if someone is a little bit quiet, their voice is the same as the loudest person in the room. We’re all on the same level playing field when we build, share our build, add, and ask questions. It’s fun.
It’s interesting that you used Play-Doh. I used to use Play-Doh, too. I still do with some of my different workshops and conversations that I hold. The way I present it is that it is your life. You can shape it any way you want. I have people who never even open it. They keep it there, and it helps decide, “Am I going to spend my energy on this or am I not?” It’s a good reminder. It’s fun little things. I totally agree with you. Having worked with the George Lucas Education Foundation in five different ways, kinesthetic connects the whole thing.
It does. When I tell people, “Just build,” I can see them hesitate. I’m like, “Just pick up some bricks because your brain is telling your hands to. If you start thinking about it, you’re counterbalancing that, so start building.”
That’s interesting. I hadn’t thought about it as a way of encouraging self-trust.
Trust yourself and build whatever is coming through. It’s great.
Strategic Play: Convincing Skeptical CEOs With Bricks
What do you do? You’re walking into this boardroom or this group. How do you convince a skeptical CEO that this isn’t just cute, but it’s incredibly strategic for leadership and cultural change?
It is a step before I arrive. I meet with them, they express interest, or I finally have a chance to sit down with them. They get a bag of LEGOs that’s very specifically picked out by the LEGO group.
Do you get to pick your colors?
No. These are very specific. This is a specific set of bricks that I use and other practitioners use when we’re introducing. He has a set of bricks, and I have a set. I’m assuming he or she. We each have a set of bricks. As I’m asking him to explain the company culture, who is involved, what is happening, and what is the end result that you’re looking for? Sometimes it’s like, “I don’t know. I just want us to be a better, more cohesive team.” Great. “I don’t know. We have a lot of silos, and I want to break that down.” Great. As he’s talking, I’m building a replication of what I understand him telling me, so then I can ask him back, “Does this represent what you’re looking for?”
It’s a conversation back and forth. After that meeting, I came up with questions that we’re going to ask about the flow of the workshop and how it goes. The preliminary questions to get people building, the more in-depth questions, and how we branch off of this or that. I get agreement on them, on understanding that that’s the plan for the day or two days.
The day I show up, I’ve got small kits in front of everybody. I’ve got larger kits that are covered in the back that they use as well. We open it up with, “Obviously, these are not the bricks you’re going to build with for the full two days. There’s a larger kit that we tap into.” We introduce more of the DUPLOs, the big animals, because when we’re building, a green brick can be just a green brick if we want it to, but it can also have many other symbolisms.
We want people to build in metaphors. If I build something aesthetically pleasing to me, as a facilitator, I might challenge it and say, “Tell me how that build applies to politics today.” It makes you challenge yourself in, “I built this for one thing. I think it’s cool. How can I apply this?” You’re building metaphors. You’re talking through stories. This green brick can be a green brick, it can be grass, it could be economically friendly initiatives, or it can be a bear. It doesn’t matter to me. No matter what you build, it’s right. It’s not right versus wrong. Whatever you build is yours and it’s right. Those are processed. I pose a question, and then I allow everybody to build.
Once everybody is done building, we share. We go around. Everybody shares the story of their model and what it is and what it means. At the end of that, we go back and reflect. If anybody has questions about somebody’s model, they can challenge and ask questions. “I noticed you used yellow in your path moving forward. Was that significant in any way?” It challenges them to say, “Maybe it’s like the yellow brick road. Maybe that’s what it means to me.” Maybe it’s sand instead of grass. Who knows? We ask those challenging questions because sometimes, there are things in your build that you don’t recognize that you built until somebody challenges and asks those questions.
Uncovering Blind Spots: A School District’s Aha! Moment
Have there been any unexpected breakthroughs? What is one that has been one of the biggest head-turning Shazam moments you’ve seen as a result of this?
It’s a little bit more detailed than what I explained, but it was a two-day workshop. We were building models, merging models, and then connecting models. The gentleman was from a school district here in Texas, where there are policies that they’re looking to change to allow grants for charter schools. The question was asked, “What do you perceive as impediments to that? What are some things that could happen if that bill passes? If public school students can now go to charter schools instead of public schools, how does that affect you as a public school?”
We each built a little model of what that looked like. The connectors can be the snap pieces that fit on top. They can be the hardest connections. They can be more rigid. Some of them are a little bit more giving to each of the departments within the school. Did it affect the students? Yes, because we could have smaller class sizes. Does it affect the teachers? Yes, because they’re going to have smaller class sizes, and they may not have the funding or the pay that they used to get because that’s being pulled from those grants.
Does it affect the parents? Absolutely, because you’re going to have a complete group. Looking at that, it challenges you because we built the entire organization of the school and all the people impacted within the school. When we built this thing, the policy that might change and the impediments, and who that affects, it was like, “Could it affect the students?” “No, it’s not going to.” Someone else in the group said, “Actually, it might, because if they go to different schools, we’re not going to have as many students as we used to have. We’re not going to have as many funds coming to us as we used to have.”
It was a group a-ha moment of, “This is a little bit bigger than what we originally thought. We’re going to have to look at these specific areas and not just the financial piece. We’re going to have to look at how we help the kids through this. If there are students who used to go to school for years that are now going to other schools, how do we help them cope?” It’s very wide. You start with one piece, and then you can build, extract, and link from there. It opens up your mind, too. You’re able to see things that, otherwise, when writing down on paper, you’re like, “I didn’t think about the students, but maybe that is a big deal.”
What’s so interesting about this is that it helps you cast a broader net, and it helps uncover blind spots. Also, the reality of “If we make this one change,” or the ripple effect.
Once it was connected to all the pieces, we physically took that impediment and pulled it from the model. You could see the reaction of those connections. Pieces were snapping off because you were pulling them away, and it was changing the configuration. People don’t see those types of visualizations when you’re just sitting in a boardroom or brainstorming over Zoom. They don’t see those things.
I love that because it takes those who are more cerebral and verbally oriented. When you witness it, there’s no denying it. I’m going to begin an engagement, helping to encourage some civil discourse. The goal is not at all to get to an agreement. It’s just to hear me out. That will be successful. Based on what you’ve been saying, I would think that these bricks do have the ability to build some semblance of a psychologically safe space. It could be used for that, right?
Yes, because what you build and what they build may look different, but they’re still equal and they’re still right. I’ll share my story when I was first being trained. She had us build our ideal CEO. I had this whole model built, and this is a little LEGO mini-figure sitting on a yellow brick because I didn’t want to build the whole thing. After I explained myself, we went around the table. On reflection, she said, “I noticed your CEO mini-figure has his leg up. Does that mean anything to you?” I thought, “Maybe I want my ideal CEO to be moving forward, to be progressive.” To this day, I will always put one leg up on my mini-figures because that’s symbolic to me to keep moving forward.
It’s fascinating.
It’s something so small and so trivial. I didn’t even think about that, but that is important to me. That is valuable to me. That is something that I hold true and dear to my heart.
For those who are leading these conversations, it’s imperative that you be incredibly observant and don’t take anything for granted.
When I ask, “What do the yellow bricks mean?” They could be like, “I just wanted to use yellow.” Cool. That’s totally fine.
That’s what I was going to ask. How do you counter, like, “They’re so meaningful?” It wasn’t anything.
We had a group once where a mom had to pick up her kids from school and bring them with her. They’re elementary school-age kids. They built their models with us. Some of their builds were as insightful as some of the adult builds. They were able to articulate it easier, faster, and better than we were. I was amazed. Obviously, kids play with LEGOs, and that’s fun and great, but to know that you can do more behind the LEGOs than just build.
I’m working on an initiative with some families because I sense and feel in my own home, there’s tension with how kids communicate, and there’s tension with the devices, and how we bring our family back together. I’m building some test models to send to families to try with prompts and how to work through the facilitation of asking questions, having them build, and giving them time.
There's tension with how kids communicate and their attention with devices. How do we bring our family back together? Share on XIt’s been great so far, the conversations that they’ve had. Two brothers didn’t know that they were both seeing an ideal classmate who had similar qualities to the two brothers. When I asked them to build maybe a not-so-great peer at school, and what those qualities were, those were similar to them as well. That then opens up something else that we can talk about, because why would we ever talk about non-cool friends at school or whatever? Not cool, but maybe not as friendly people, and what do they look like?
For the parent to see that and say, “I’m glad that these are the qualities that they see are good,” and maybe challenge them to try to initiate conversation with the not great kid, and try to see if you can bring them into whatever. The uses are endless. We can do team-building exercises, and we can do strategic sessions. It’s what you’re open to because you never know what’s going to come out of this, and we have to be willing to embrace it.
When To Bring In LEGO: Crisis, Reorgs, Or Remodels?
That’s what I was going to ask, and I think you probably answered it for me, but I was going to say or ask, is there an ideal time? Is there a best time for a company to bring in LEGO? Is it during a reorg or after a crisis, or when you’re trying to go big or go home?
Yeah. Anytime. You mentioned after a crisis. In speaking to some organizations, they were like, “We laid off a bunch of people, we don’t have time, and we don’t have the budget.” I’ll challenge that and say, “Now is the perfect time to do this exercise, to understand what they’re thinking, what they’re feeling, for you to share that you do care about them and you do want to invest the time and energy for them to feel heard, seen, and noted.”
To challenge them and say, “Yes, we know we laid off friends. We laid off people, but we want you to know that we value you. We want to move forward. What does your role look like, and what do you think the company looks like?” Challenge some of those builds so that they can see the benefit. It can be anytime. It can be team building, new orientation, a crisis, or whatever. We can build around what has happened and ask questions that lead to understanding.
I had a company that asked me, “Could we do this for a remodel of the office? I want to know what’s important.” “Absolutely, we can.” What was important to you in your office? Some pieces that they had in their old office were not displayed in any of the builds. They knew, “We don’t want to keep that in then because nobody cares about the foosball table,” or whatever that may be.
It’s a fun way to bring people together without saying, “Let’s go to the bar and hang out after work. Let’s have a team building at the bar.” There are a lot of people that doesn’t fit in. We bring it into the workplace, and we make it fun. We call it hard play because it’s fun, but we’re also playing with a purpose.
LEGO is a fun way to bring people together. Share on XI would also think of those who are more introspective, quieter, neurologically diverse, or take your pick. It opens it up to everyone to be able to have a role with no judgment.
I grew up in Plano, Texas, North of Dallas. When I was growing up, I struggled in school. I worked so hard. I would bring my books home every single night. In my third year in college, I was diagnosed with a severe learning disability. My mom said, “I should have known.” I was like, “Mom, you didn’t know. That wasn’t a thing back then.” Now, it is more understanding. People do accept the neurodiverse. People do accept ADHD, and bring us all to a table where we’re all equal and our builds all matter. I also do some work with the CliftonStrengths. I found that I am very low-strategic. If you put me in a boardroom to brainstorm, I’m going to freeze up because my brain doesn’t work that way.
Using LEGO play allows us all to come to the table with what we have. There are no good or bad answers. Build with what you have, and we’re going to work through that. There have been a lot of CEOs or leaders who have said, “I had no idea she thought that. That is an amazing idea. I wish she knew that she could have told us sooner.” My response is that she may not have known that it was there until we start processing through some of these things. Maybe get with her on a more regular basis and ask her what she’s thinking or what ideas she might have. Culture that in her, or grow that in her, so that she feels seen and heard.
Measuring Success: The Impact of Hard Play
How do you measure success? I’m sure it varies. I’m curious. At first, a CEO or whoever hires you thinks, “This is what we want,” and often, they probably have 4 or 5 different huge breakthroughs at the end of a session.
For me, measuring success is during the workshop, when people are engaged, people are sharing, and people are noting areas where they may need to make a change. Throughout the process, I talk to the leader, “I’m sensing that we might need to take a side step in this direction,” “No, yes, let’s do it.” I’m engaging with them throughout the process to make sure they understand or they’re good with the observations I’m making. “The group seems to want to go this way, but you wanted to go this way. How do you feel?” Always, the leader will say, “Yeah, that’s great.”
At the end of the workshop, that person and I will have a chat either that day or the next day, and then I will draw up all the results. I’ve never had anybody say, “That was a total waste of my time. I wish we didn’t do that.” It’s normally, “That was amazing. We’re going to work on this and then we’ll call you back,” and whatever. One of the key things is that you get to keep a small set of LEGOs.
We do not keep the builds that they’ve built with the impediments and the connectors or whatever, because once they’ve achieved that, they’re stagnant and they’re stuck. It’s not the way. If they want to buy more LEGO kits to do their own stuff, that’s absolutely fine. I’ll help as much as I can to support that initiative. Success to me is the CEO, the leader, or whoever is saying, “That was a great workshop and I learned a lot about my team.” Great.
To me, it also feels as though it leaves a permanent foot in the door of remembering this and questioning, “Am I seeing everything? Is there a different way that I can look at this? If I had a brick in my hand, what would I do?” If someone asked you to build a LEGO model of the future of work, what would it look like?
For me, I’ll call it the yellow brick road that came from my interpretation at one point. It’s multiple people with me on this journey, yet there are also people along the journey, many figures of all different shapes and sizes that we meet and join us for the journey of learning and development. It’s like an open road. We all have our legs up, and we’re all ready to go, and we’re going to make this path.
Anybody can facilitate a workshop with LEGO bricks. Anybody can do it. It’s the methodology and the understanding of the process. The specific kits we use are very specific, and I appreciate the level of care that we were taught in our association of master trainers. There’s a certain level of this is how we build, and these are the questions that we ask. I appreciate and respect that level of professionalism and that standard being a little bit higher than just building with bricks.
That’s interesting. I brought it up because there’s a certain amount of rigor and discipline with that. Now, I want you to think about sitting down with your younger self. Knowing what you know now, what advice would you give her?
I didn’t get to play with bricks when I was a kid, so I would definitely introduce those very early on. I would tell her, “You can do this. It doesn’t matter what happens, what diagnosis, what impediment you see or feel, just keep going. You’ve got this. There are going to be times when people make you feel less than. Don’t let them. Keep going because you are great. You’re doing wonderful things. You have fun, and you have a positive personality. Keep building, keep playing, and keep going on.” That’s a good question.
Just keep going. You've got this. There will be times when people make you feel less than; don't let them. Keep going, because you are great. Share on XOne brick at a time. May it all be yellow, filled with sunshine. Jolynn, thank you so much. I appreciate it. You’ve got the wheels in the bus of my mind going round and round for sure.
I would love to partner. If you’re already a LEGO facilitator and need a secondary with larger groups, we have to have two people facilitating. I’d be happy to help. I am willing to travel to meet you where you are to do LEGO builds. It’s a lot of fun. If you’ve never done it before, check it out because it’s amazing. You can find me at ElevateYourTalent.co or on LinkedIn, Jolynn Ledgerwood. I would love to connect with you. I love to talk about all things play. Anything that brings play and playfulness into the workplace is valuable to me. Whatever that looks like to you.
Especially these days, a little lighter touch. Thank you so much. Women Advancing crew, I told you. Until then, she’s the one. You want to play with her.
We have fun.
Awesome. Thanks so much.
Thank you.
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KB’s Takeaways: The Power Of Play In The Workplace
That was certainly a fun way to start the day for me. I think Jolynn and this whole notion of LEGO and LEGO play bricks as a key eye-opener and mind opener. I’m going to say heart opener. I always throw that in there, I know, but it’s true. You have to admit that when you are in the moment and you’re busy playing, so many things become more possible.
My three KB Takeaways from this one is that LEGO is a great equalizer. There is no right or wrong, your idea, your thought, and your expression of certain situations at hand. It opens up communication, which then leads to better opportunities for pure solutions so that all voices may be heard. It literally takes people out of the box. One of the things that struck me when we were talking was the whole thought about how we say we want a lot of innovation, and yet we draw such thick lines around everybody, be it from the structural setup of a building in an office to roles, etc.
Sure, things are getting a little more flat hierarchically, but still, there are some very key lines in the sand that have been drawn. I believe that LEGO releases and removes all of those. I love the notion of playing with purpose. At first, I thought that was a bit of an oxymoron because it doesn’t add intensity, but I don’t think it does. I think it frees people to come up with their own solutions once they know that they are going to be more inclusive for all in the room. With that, I look forward to playing together in future episodes of Women Advancing. Until then, take care.
Important Links
- Jolynn Ledgerwood’s website
- Elevate Your Talent
- Jolynn Ledgerwood on LinkedIn
- LEGO® Serious Play® Products
About Jolynn Ledgerwood
Jolynn D. Ledgerwood has over 25 years experience in Learning and Development. Her experience spans the Restaurant industry, Cybersecurity, and IT services. She has worked with several large companies including PepsiCo, Brinker International, FritoLay, Critical Start, and Toyota Motors.
While she enjoyed her work in the large corporate setting, she was discouraged by the methodologies for Team Building and allowing ALL members a voice.
When she found LEGO®️ Serious Play®️, she was drawn to its familiarity and plentiful application opportunities. (LSP has over 15,000 facilitators in the Europe countries, and only 100+ in the US.). She added it to her list of Certifications including Bob Goff’s Dream Big, The Primal Question, and Gallup StrengthsFinder.